Nelson & His World

Anyone see the wooden columns on the Antiques Roadshow last night,Sun Nov 7th,presumably they were taken out when Victory was having a refit,the owner paid £50 for the two,but has no provenance.Any comments?
Dave.

Dave

No-one has responded to your invitation - so let me.
I am personally dubious about the provenace of the pillars, both of which appeared to be in excellent condition. I can imagine that when a ship is broken up, both chunks of timber and perfectly servicable carved items would be available for sale and re-use. But not surely in a re-fit - more precisely described at the time as a 'moderate' or 'major repair'? The object here by a cost conscious Admiralty would be to replace rotten or worn items, not to wastefully throw perfectly good ones on the scrap heap.
The plans of the three decker shown on the program demonstrated fairly convincingly where the pillar came from (its peculiar shape placing it perfectly in the galley area). But my guess is that is came from a vessel that was broken up which, of course, Victory never was.
Some salesman obviously had a flair for marketing. I wonder if used ship salesmen had as poor reputations then as used car salesmen do now?

Brian

Dave,

Whilst a little sceptical that these support pillars are from the Victory, I wouldn't be so dismissive as Brian appears to be! I have not, by the way, actually seen the programme nor therefore the pillars, so if anyone can find a means of posting pictures of them on the site...

To consider the Victory for a moment, she has had no end of refits, repairs and refurbishments over the years and certainly ever since she was brought into the dry dock in which she currently sits, in the 1920's. In more recent years, especially following the Second World War and right up to today, rather more has been done by means of research so that not only are timbers replaced due to age and decay, but often because they are not correct for the Trafalgar period. Therefore it may be that these pillars were simply replaced for that reason and not due to the fact that they were defective.

If we are to discount the Victory as being the ship they came from, then there are many later wooden walls from which they may have come and which were used as moored training ships in various ports and rivers up and down the UK, before they were broken up. However, without any provenance it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to pinpoint the ship from which they came. It would be interesting to know if there are any special marks, such as carpenter's marks, on them which might be investigated.

Kester
I think we all seem to agree that the columns are doubtful in being from Victory,but who knows,we will never know.
You could have a look on BBC Iplayer "Antiques Roadshow"Sun Nov 7th
Dave.

Dave,

Thanks, I will indeed try and have a look at BBC Iplayer.

There is a photo here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld ... UXUBG-p2jw

From what I remember, the story was that they were purchased from Henry Williamson, author of 'Tarka the Otter', who had obtained them in the 1930s after the Victory's restoration. But as you say, there was no documentary evidence.

Tony,

Thanks. The column or pillar to the left is certainly a distinctive shape and I had no idea that the pillars in the galley area were differently shaped; I can find no mention of it in the books that I have consulted.

Looking at a (rather small) sectional diagram in Peter Goodwin’s ‘The Ships of Trafalgar’, the one place I can see a curved pillar or column is forward on the lower gundeck, immediately below the stove. The reason for the curve is that the spacing of the beams below the two decks is different, and of course the column transfers the weight from the beam above to the beam below. I’m not sure exactly why the spacing of the beams is different there, but I think it might be to do with the construction and position of the riding bitts, or maybe it was just the position of the gun ports.

Tony,

Ok, I've found a couple of drawings with the pillars as you describe, on the lower gun deck beneath the galley stove, and close to the riding bitts. (I was looking in the area of the galley itself on the middle gun deck.) However, even though these look to be the right shape, they would appear to be of smaller dimensions to the pillars on the Victory, or ships of her size. Perhaps they are from a smaller ship?

The photo may perhaps be a little deceptive, Kester. From what I remember of the programme, the curved column was about the same height or slightly taller than the chap holding it, who didn't look small. So that may be about right for the Victory's lower gundeck. The straight column is shorter, and I am not sure where you would find one that short in the Victory.

Tony,

I would agree the photo is deceptive without anything, or anyone, to compare it with. Now you mention the man's height, you may be correct as to the curved pillar. As you suggest, the straight one would appear to come from another part of the ship, or perhaps it's from another vessel entirely.

Guys

Sorry to be "late to the party".

When I first saw this on the AR my gut feeling was that they might well be genuine.

(That made me feel good as I so often seem to take the negative angle!)

Main reason was that the date fitted quite well with the refurbishment of Victory AND I am not aware that there were any breakers yards in Portsmouth.

Even though no written provenance I found the verbal provenance fairly convincing.

Anyway it has taken me until now to pull out a book I have called "HMS Victory - Her Construction, Career and Restoration."

I quote from the section on the 1922-1928 repairs.



I think that must up the ante considerably.

It didn't really take much effort for me to turn this up.

I feel sure that if I had been the owner I would have done some more background research before going to the AR. And you would have thought the AR researchers would have done a bit of digging as this info would have made the feature considerably more interesting.

If I can find time next week I'll fire off a letter to the BBC. See if they care to pass the information on to the owner.

I'm sure he will do the honourable thing and offer one of them to me as a "thank you".

MB

Mark,

I wouldn't accept the laurels just yet!

The drawings that I looked at are from just the book you mention, but I can't see in any of them pillars similar to the one under discussion – apart from those on the lower gun deck, beneath the galley (but I'll keep looking!) Even though they could possibly be from somewhere on the orlop, I somehow doubt it, and I certainly don't think they would be from the hold. To begin with the deckhead is far higher here than on the decks above, due to the space needed for storage, and even though there are 'shaped' pillars in the hold, they don't appear to be shaped in the same way.

Ooo err - I hope I haven't jumped the gun here!

Have to agree Kester that the diagrams seem to show these shaped columns on the lower gun deck rather than the orlop. There are also shorter ones slightly forward.

The location definitely seems questionable but I can't imagine that Alan McGowan dreamed up the notion that pillars were removed from Victory during the 1920's repairs.

Would be great if someone could check back to more detailed records.

Meanwhile I'll stick with my gut instinct that these pillars "probably" came from Victory.

If only they could speak . . . . . !

MB

Mark,

Not to worry, you don't seem to have done too much damage, as yet!

As for Alan Mcgowan and 'The Victory, Her Construction...... ' etc., I would think both text and drawings are probably accurate as it is, after all, based on the known records and refits of the ship.

As you say, if only the timbers could speak. Until then, or other records come to light, the positioning of the timbers will probably remain a matter for conjecture.